"The Christianity of history is not Protestantism. If ever there were a safe truth it is this, and Protestantism has ever felt it so; to be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant." (-John Henry Newman, An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine).

"Where the bishop is, there let the people gather; just as where ever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church". -St. Ignatius of Antioch (ca 110 AD)a martyr later thrown to the lions, wrote to a church in Asia Minor. Antioch was also where the term "Christian" was first used.

“But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.” 1 Timothy 3:15

"This is the sole Church of Christ, which in the Creed we profess to be one, holy, catholic and apostolic." -CCC 811

Saturday, December 11, 2010

On ISAIAH 9:6 twisted by an Iglesia ni Cristo blogger

Now someone has joined the the anti-Catholic bashing group from the Iglesia ni Cristo cult founded by Felix Manalo Ysagun and incorporated it in July 27, 1914 who introduced himself as Engr. Renante Nate. Just like readme Conrad J. Obligacion, this newbie INC blogger is a trying hard historian and theologian. Of course, we can never be too sure of his opinion since he DOES NOT HAVE any official INC teaching to back up his opinion.

Thanks to Manila Balita introducing us another "notorious" INC Defender like Conrad J. Obligacion who owns resbak.com and readmeinc.blogspot.com.

Posted in Thursday, November 5, 2009, Article Title: ON ISAIAH 9:6, he said that the title given to Jesus as Emmanuel or Immanuel (God with us) is Theophory.

What is Theopory? According to Wikipedia, Theopory "refers to the practice of embedding the name of a god or a deity in, usually, a proper name."

Such that Isaiah 9:6 which says:
For a child is born to us, a son is given us; upon his shoulder dominion rests. They name him Wonder-Counselor, God-Hero, Father-Forever, Prince of Peace.
"For clarity" says this INC Blogger, he then tried to translate Isaiah 9:6 to:
"For to us a child is born, a son is given to us, and the government shall be on his shoulder, and his name will be called Pele Yoetz El Gibor Avi Ad Sar Shalom." (an engineer graduate who doesn't know how to give credit to his source by giving us proper reference)
which according to this INC blogger's opinion was:
"The long name “Pele Yoetz El Gibor Avi Ad Sar Shalom” literally means “Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, (calls) The Prince of Peace.”

Then he concluded:
Hence, it is a theophoric name that is common in the bible. Jesus Christ has a theophoric name which is Immanuel (“God with us”) Mt 1:23.
Sounds brilliant, right?

Wrong! He wasn't even smarter than a neophyte college graduate.  He's thinking everyone was stupid not to discover his gross dishonesty. Just like readme aka truthcaster Conrad J. Obligacion, he's also a deceiver.

Why I said Engr. Renante Nate's is a deceiver?  It's because he's claiming a fact based on his opinion.  And it's because...
  • He has no theological background.  He's an engineer (as he's trying to emphasise that in his blog) 
  • He isn't a Minister ( an only INC ministers can interpret the Bible according to them)
  • He's not honest. He only provided us links from Wikipedia not from INC Official teachings.  He only wants to mislead you!
Here's my defense for Jesus Christ the LORD and REDEEMER of all mankind, the giver and sustainer of LIFE; The Word who was made Flesh, Who is God, the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE. 

For the information of those whom he almost deceived, please note that the BIBLE DIDN'T START from the Book of Isaiah and it DIDN'T END there in Isaiah 9:6 .  In this chapter and verse of Isaiah, it talks about the COMING OF THE MESSIAH who is GOD. In Isaiah 7:14, it says"
Therefore the Lord himself will give you this sign: the virgin shall be with child, and bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel.
Isaiah 9:7 is TALKING about the COMING of the Messiah. And this Messiah, WILL BE CALLED Immanuel (God with us) will be BORN to us AS A CHILD.

Again in Isaiah 11:1-5 the Prophet clarified his prophecy:
But a shoot shall sprout from the stump of Jesse,
and from his roots a bud shall blossom.
The spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him:
a spirit of wisdom and of understanding,
A spirit of counsel and of strength,
a spirit of knowledge and of fear of the LORD,
and his delight shall be the fear of the LORD.
Not by appearance shall he judge,
nor by hearsay shall he decide,
But he shall judge the poor with justice,
and decide aright for the land's afflicted.
He shall strike the ruthless with the rod of his mouth,
and with the breath of his lips he shall slay the wicked.
Justice shall be the band around his waist,
and faithfulness a belt upon his hips.

Isaiah Chapter 11, Verse 9:
There shall be no harm or ruin on all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be filled with knowledge of the LORD, as water covers the sea.

On that day, The root of Jesse, set up as a signal for the nations, The Gentiles shall seek out, for his dwelling shall be glorious.

You see. Isaiah 9:6 was even explained by the author of the book himself.  That the Messiah will be BORN to us, as a CHILD and his dominion WILL BE FOREVER.

Let's see the NEW TESTAMENT if this PROPHESY was fulfilled?  Let's see if Immanuel REMAINED a THEOPONY or it ACTUALLY HAPPENED!

Let's read the prologue of John 1:1-5;9:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was in the beginning with God.
All things came to be through him,
and without him nothing came to be.
What came to be through him was life,
and this life was the light of the human race;
the light shines in the darkness,
and the darkness has not overcome it.

And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father's only Son, full of grace and truth.
So the Prophet Isaiah's prophesy about the coming of the Lord DID HAPPENED in TRUTH, John testified to that truth. Hence the story of this INC Blogger has been debunked.

In Phil. 2:5-11, St. Paul says:

Do nothing out of selfishness or out of vainglory; rather, humbly regard others as more important than yourselves, each looking out not for his own interests, but (also) everyone for those of others. Have among yourselves the same attitude that is also yours in Christ Jesus, Who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped.

Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness; 5 and found human in appearance, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross.

Because of this, God greatly exalted him and bestowed on him the name 7 that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, 8 of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, 9 to the glory of God the Father.

Which was a fulfillment of Isaiah 45:23-25:

By myself I swear, uttering my just decree and my unalterable word:
To me every knee shall bend; by me every tongue shall swear,
Saying, "Only in the LORD are just deeds and power.
Before him in shame shall come all who vent their anger against him.
In the LORD shall be the vindication and the glory of all the descendants of Israel."

In the OLD TESTAMENT, the Prophet Isaiah says  "in the name of God the Lord, EVERY KNEE SHALL BEND..."

In the NEW TESTAMENT, St. Paul says "in the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE SHALL BEND ..."

Iglesia ni Cristo defenders wants us to think that the Prophet Isaiah and the Apostle Paul area against each other.

Certainly not! 

The Prophet Isaiah and St. Paul were not confused at all.  They understood exactly what's all about the mystery of the Triune God. Felix Manalo was indeed confused and his confusion led him to distort Isaiah's prophesies.  That's what this INC Blogger want's to say.

10 comments:

  1. Reference?

    Why should I cite reference? Can you find any other school of thought similar to ours? Review your basic English Composition Course on why and how to make a reference.

    AD HOMINEM ATTACK!

    Your ad hominem attacks shows your ill-mannered character. Why do you dig up my personal info as engineer, as a member of INC? Does this help you in rebuking our faith? How then are you different from those Jews who tried to discredit Jesus Christ as son of a carpenter? (Mark 6:1-3)

    Why dont you just squarely nullify my position that Isaiah 9:6 is expression of THEOPHORY? Even a level-headed reader will look forward to your argument that it is NOT a THEOPHORY.


    If you cannot answer, DO NOT JUST avoid it and make litany of your twisted beliefs.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Engr. Nate, read again my point. Didn't the EMMANUEL (God with us) really made his dwelling in us according to John's Gospel?

    Your English maybe good but your interpretation of Isaiah is evidently misleading, not us but you and your cohorts. May the Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on your soul.

    ReplyDelete
  3. It’s you who do not get my point. You don’t face the argument squarely. You cannot rebuke my assertion that Isaiah 9:6 is a THEOPHORY. You tried to avoid discussing it.
    The primary concept that you DO NOT understand is that theophoric names do not necessarily define the individuals bearing this name.

    For you, if “true to your name” happens then it does not remain as theopony. It appears that you really do not understand THEOPHORY. For you, Immanuel does not remain as theophory because Christ dwelt with us. How about Daniel (which means Judgment of God)? Don’t you think Daniel is also a theophory? How about Samuel (which means Heard of God)? What if your surname is “Dimaculangan”? Will this tell you about your selfish character?

    The problem with you people is that you use Isaiah 9:6 to prove that Jesus Christ is God on the basis of being called as God and Father in His theophoric name. You grossly twist the bible with your interpretation. Unsurprisingly, the consequence of this misinterpretation is your tradition of assigning Peter (which means rock) as foundation of Catholic Church.

    This kind of reasoning cannot stand the test of truth. Why don’t you reason out and veer away from the theological books made by people who endlessly wanted their own names be praised?

    ReplyDelete
  4. Why are you fretting out about Theophory? It's because if you believe that the title of Jesus as "Immanuel" literally means "God really made his dwelling in us" they you will cease to be an Iglesia ni Cristo.

    Stop dreaming. It's your own Ministers who love to twist Biblical truths to suit their arguments about Felix Manalo as the "Last Sugo".

    Ask your Ministers and your Central why you have NO official website? It's because you answered it already. Your kind of reasoning "CANNOT STAND THE TEST OF TRUTH".

    You do not believe in the Divinity of Christ, that's the main reason why you want to talk in circles. To stop you from your hallucinations, there are more Biblical verses in the Bible that proves Jesus is God. Humble yourself before the Lord God Jesus Christ. Your spiritual pride is choking you and no matter how you may argue well about your position, it will remain as your PERSONAL OPINION because we find no OFFICIAL pronouncements from your Central except the fact that your own Ministers says your church was actually founded by Felix Manalo and not Jesus

    PASUGO Agosto-Setyembre 1964, p. 5
    “Kailan napatala sa Pamahalaan o narehistro ang INK sa Pilipinas? Noong Hulyo 27, 1914. Tunay nga na sinasabi sa rehistro na si Kapatid na F. Manalo ang nagtatag ng INK."

    ReplyDelete
  5. It is you who first commented on my blog about Isaiah 9:6. My blog about this verse is my position that it is a THEOPHORY. Just like many Theophories in the Bible, there is nothing wrong with Immanuel having a literal meaning "God with us". This is taken from Leviticus 26:12 which says that God will walk with them.
    The problem is, people like you misinterpret it as God who "incarnates" and lived with us in the person of Jesus Christ. You and your cohorts reason out this way: "Christ is God because he is Immanuel which means "God with us". This kind of reasoning is very invalid.

    Why dont you take the explanation from the bible itself? Iglesia ni Cristo does not weave absurd interpretation. Let the bible explain it for us. I will show you.

    What does it mean by "God dwelling with us"? How can a God dwell in us? The answer is not John 1:1,5-9,14
    Read 1 John 4:13-16. It says clearly,

    "Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him."

    Using this verse, maybe you should ask yourself and all Catholics

    1. Are you testifying that the Father "sent" the Son to be the Savior of the World OR you believe that the Father "went down" from heaven in the person of the Son. Catholics tried to avoid using the word "sent". They prefer "gave" as in John 3:16, "...God gave his only begotten son".
    2. Do you confess that Jesus is the Son of God or you confess that Jesus is Himself God?

    It is you who have been twisting the bible.

    Why dont you list down your proofs that Christ is God? Havent you read my blog? I listed down the biblical proofs that Christ is human. http://our-faith-as-inc.blogspot.com/2009/10/why-do-we-believe-that-jesus-christ-is.html

    I remember my Ateneo theology teacher way back in College when I showed him these verses. He ended up saying "We dont argue that Christ is human but you should also believe that he is also a God". I told him "then you need to show that Christ is a hybrid of God and man." The burden of showing proof is not ours. You have the excess doctrines.

    WHAT DOES HAVING AN OFFICIAL WEBSITE MEAN SOMETHING TO YOU? We have the PASUGO. We propagate our faith personally to people in order for them to receive doctrine, tests and trials before baptism. We dominate the free broadcast media in the country in terms of propagation of faith. Unless you show me some of your technical intelligence I can explain to you why.

    YOu must be very funny! The government registration form wayback 1914 called for the item "Founder" which in legal point of view is the one who is registering for it. But on INC point of view, Founder means the cornerstone of faith which is Christ (Eph 2:20) You must not be fool to mess around with government legal procedures.

    ReplyDelete
  6. PART 1

    “…there is nothing wrong with Immanuel having a literal meaning "God with us", good that we can agree on that. For us Christians, there is really NO problem with this, it’s because the whole of the NT is the living witness to this TRUTH.

    Immanuel is not taken from Leviticus. Leviticus talks about how God guided the Israelites to the promised land. Amidst their STUBBORNNESS and HARD-HEADEDNESS God remained faithful with Israel. Sa kabila ng kahungkaran ng Israel NANATILING TAPAT at Dios. God NEVER found another Israel just because they are unfaithful. The same with Christ, thought there were Judases in his Church (Catholic Church), he NEVER ABANDONED it, he remained FAITHFUL as he promised in Matthew 16. Do I have to lecture you on this?

    Immanuel was found in Isaiah (you quoted it) not in Leviticus. It’s because Isaiah is a full of prophecy about the COMING OF THE MESSIAH, not about God walking with his people in ancient Israel.

    Isaiah was talking about the COMING of the MESSIAH as a CHILD. “For a child is born to us, a son is given us; upon his shoulder dominion rests. They name him Wonder-Counselor, God-Hero, Father-Forever, Prince of Peace.”

    See? It’s not about Leviticus as you have deliberately want to mislead people. Bakit sinabi ito ni Propeta Isaias? It’s because he knew that God (the second person of the Trinity) will be born of a Virgin, and will named him as such.

    Now, let go to the NT if this prophesy was fulfilled.

    You said, “the answer is NOT John 1:1,5-9,14.

    Why you hate JOHN 1? It’s because the fulfillment of Isaiah 9:6 is PERFECTLY (LITERALLY) fulfilled in John 1. Let’s read:

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father's only Son, full of grace and truth.

    1. Beginning was the Word (Logos) not plan as your manghuhula explains the prologue.
    2. The Word (Logos) was with God
    3. The Word (Logos) WAS GOD!
    4. The Word – God (Logos) became FLESH and made his dwelling among us
    5. Trully he is IMMANUELD for GOD has made his DWELLING among us!!!!!

    CONTINUE......

    ReplyDelete
  7. PART 2... CONTINUATION...

    You don’t like John 1 because it explains LITERALLY as the fulfillment of Isaiah 9:6. Remember the prophesy of Isaiah was almost 500 years before the coming of the Messiah. So who is TWISTING the TRUTHS of the BIBLE?

    1 John 4: 12-15 is just emphasizing about the truth of JOHN 1 and Isaiah 9:6. There is no problem with our interpretation.

    To clear out your confusion, here is my answer.

    1. The Father is NOT the Son
    2. The SON is NOT the Father
    3. The Spirit is neither the Son nor the Father.
    4. There is ONE GOD in Three distinct persons… it’s a Mystery we cannot fully understand but we firmly believe.

    Not because Jesus said I am a man, he denied his divinity. Hindi dahil sa inamin niyang tao siya (at bakit pa niya sasabihin eh obvious namang tao siya sa tingin ng tao), hindi nangangahulugan HINDI na siya Dios.

    Here is more obvious: John 8:58.

    JESUS CHRIST the MAN said in TESTIMONY: “Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM."

    What did JESUS CHRIST said when he was on trial? BEFORE ABRAHAM, I AM! Tagalog: Bago pa raw si Abraham ay SIYA NA! Try to TWIST that truth again.

    What does OFFICIAL WEBSITE mean to me? Wow, what a question. You wanted us to visit one of your post at http://our-faith-as-inc.blogspot.com/2009/10/why-do-we-believe-that-jesus-christ-is.html for what purpose?

    If you see the importance of visiting your blog to explain YOUR OPINION that that’s the same reason why we hunger for the official position of the Iglesia ni Cristo. And because you are so scared to bring out your official teachings in public its because your reasoning do not pass the test of truth. Ikaw na nagsabi niyan.

    True. It’s funny. Your own Pasugo admits that your cult was founded by a man named Felix Manalo and incorporated it in 1914. Why? It’s because Felix believed that the ORIGINAL Church of Christ which is the Catholic Church according to your official magazine Pasugo April 1966, p. 46.

    Since you want the Bible to answer things for you, I have few challenges using the Bible.

    Where can you find in the Bible that the CHURCH of Christ will COMPLETELY APOSTATIZE? Chapters and Verses. And where in history it was recorded that the historical Church of Christ which is the Catholic Church completely apostatized?

    Where can we find the name of Felix Manalo in the Bible? Where can we find the the proper noun “Iglesia ni Cristo” in the Bible. If you can provide me all, I will concede.

    Oh btw, you said Eph 2:20 .. the Church is built UPON THE FOUNDATION of the APOSTLES, with Christ Jesus as the cornerstone

    Bakit APOSTLE ba si FELIX MANALO para may foundation ang church niya?!!! That’s the funny part of it.

    I will wait. In the meantime, good luck!

    ReplyDelete
  8. ang paniniwala o pagkakakilala ng mga scribes at pharisees kay KRISTO AY TULAD SA ARAL NIYO NA KRISTONG TAO the inCULT evidence is John8:40 ! [Jn 10:30-33, Luke 5:20-21, Jn 5:18]


    sila ang tinawag na BULAG NG KRISTO [ MAT 15:14]


    tinawag na ang AMA NILAY DIYABLO [ John 8:44]

    Phil 2:21 They seek THEIR OWN INTEREST "Not those of Jesus Christ"

    JER 17:5 Ganito ang sabi ng Panginoon: Sumpain ang tao na TUMITIWALA SA TAO.

    Bakit Nagbabago ba ang Kristo? haha
    Heb13:8 Jesus is THE SAME Yesterday Today & Tomorrow!


    inCULT Worship Father as God at the same time dey Worship Jesus as a Servant Creature & a Man Rom 1:25 Genesis up2 Revelation State WORSHIP GOD [Not Worship God & Man] in Ex20:1-5 says that one should NOT WORSHIP ANYTHING ELSE EXCEPT GOD! if u Worship Jesus as a Man U r Worshipping False god or Other god it Is Contradict to the Whole Bible! Bible said Read NOT LISTEN Jos1:8 Eph3:4 Rev1:3 Mk12:10 Nid Knowledlege San1:5 dhil may bulaan 2cr11:13-14 mat7:15


    @joseventi First Jesus said I will Build my Church it is the Body of Christ or the People who believes in Him Read MT26:61 Temple was Destroy in 3 days after build in 3 days MT27:40 Temple is refering 2 Body NoT Religion Mk8:31 Mk14:58 Temple was refering 2 the BODY 1cor6:19 1cor15:4 where Not Baptized & save By RELIGION, Cross is the Power of God 1cor1:12-18 Jesus is Rock 1cor10:4 we know that God is Rock Ps8:2 18:2 62:7 , 2sam22:3,Deu32:4 etc.


    Jesus is the Only Way Not the Religion Jn14:6 Bible said there's Only One Savior Hos13:4 Isa43:11 and We know that Jesus is the Savior Tit2:13 if Jesus is Another to the Father it means There's a Two Savior? And The Book in Old Testament Lie when it Speak "Beside Me THERE IS NO SAVIOR" but we know that Jesus & the Father r ONE Jn10:30 we r saved by Grace and it is a Gift of God and Faith NOT Our Works Eph2:8-9 TiT3:7 Gal2:16 2:20-21


    Ang salita NG Diyos ay Maliwanag Kaya D kailangan NG Sangkaterbang Bibliya 1cor14:33 Magbasa Rev1:3 Eph3:4 Try the Spirit 1Jn4:1 Dhil may Bulaang Kristo Mt24:24 Mk13:22 2cor11:13-14 ang Scribes and pharisees ang kristong tao nuon Jn10:30-33 Lk5:20-21 Jn5:18 sila ay tinawag na bulag ng Kristo Mt15:14 tinawag na Ang Ama ay Dyablo Jn8:44 bible said Worship not Worshio GOD and MAN Jesus Mt4:10 Lk4:8 Rev19:10 if Jesus Creature U R wrong coz worship Him Rm1:25


    Genesis 1:26 is on the plurality in the Deity, and in 1:27 on the unity of the divine Essence.




    NASA BIBLIYA O WALA?


    SAGOT: WALA PAGE 114


    DOKTRINA BILANG 22


    HUWAG KAYONG MANINIWALA na MAYROONG TALATA SA BIBLIYA NA NAGSASABING SI KRISTO AY TUNAY NA DIYOS. Mandarayang tagapangaral ang gumagawa nito. DAPAT NINYONG ITAKWIL ANG ARAL NA MAY TATLONG PERSONA NA IISANG DIYOS


    NASA BIBLIYA O WALA?

    SAGOT: WALA! PAGE 113


    DOKTRINA BILANG 21


    Alisin na ninyo sa inyong paniniwala ang turo si Kristo ay TUNAY NA DIYOS. Salungat ito sa aral ng bibliya dapat ninyong kilalanin igalang at SAMBAHIN si Kristo SUBALIT HUWAG KAILANMAN KILALANING DIYOS sapagkat kayoy magkakasala.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Instead of fighting each other, why conduct a friendly bible study? You guys are brothers not enemies. It's saddening that children of God are doing this.

    ReplyDelete

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